Talk:Cocytus

Deleted information

I get that you guys try to maintain the pages with Null Canon information only, so I won't debate the use of the Demon World from Next Order and the Pandemonium from Next as being different names for the Cocytus, but Barbamon's profile is null canon and so is Gulfmon's. So why delete both of these informations as well? Barbamon's profile gives the Cocytus two different names (the heart of the Dark Area and the Den of Demons) and Gulfmon's profile states that it's Maw is connected to this place. It look like the information was just mass deleted without even giving it the benefit of the doubt.--Convergencia Digital (talk) 04:42, 13 December 2022 (CST)

if it's from the DRB it's fine but you'll need to make sure it's actually referring to the cocytus. For the demon world maybe a next order section that just says "they live in the demon world which might be the coytus but is unconfirmed". Like the demon world could be an area of cocytus rather than all of it? As for null canon, that's how the wiki runs. Null canon lore (mostly the DRB but a few other things like Digimon profile and card game lore on individual cards). If something is said in one continuity we can't assume it applies to all (e.g. The stuff in cyber slueth about the demon lords. That should only be in cyber slueth and universes linked to it like decode not entire multiverse wide). As I mentioned on the god page, sometimes god is Yggdrasil sometimes it isn't. As such we can't just apply him being god in chronicle to all timelines. He lives in the kernel in chronicle but he doesn't live there in rearise (and rearise mentions Huanglongmon is god there, so Yggdrasil isn't cus huanglongmon is). The issue as mentioned by tms on the other talk page was you were including info into the null canon from non null canon media creating some combined timeline where all media are one timeline. But that's not possible. Even some media ignore the null canon (Digimon are created in 2021 in Survive not 1997) so Survive can't fit with anything else that has them created in 1997 (everything else).Muur (talk) 05:04, 13 December 2022 (CST)

I understand that now.

The thing about Barbamon is that we already know that he resides in the Cocytus since it is mentiones in the Profile about the 7 great demon lords. And Barbamon's profile says that he lives in the "hearth of the dark area" known as "the den of demons", so it is refearing to the cocytus.--Convergencia Digital (talk) 06:28, 13 December 2022 (CST)

do we have a source that says the cocytus is the heart of the dark area? we know its the deepest layer, but that doesnt mean the heart.Muur (talk) 06:53, 13 December 2022 (CST)

(using others' translations for brevity)

Report 26: "Each of these hellions has their own territory in Cocytus, the deepest level of the Dark Area."

Report 35: "Each Dark Area is connected to a deepest layer known as Cocytus. There is only one Cocytus, an area shared by each and every Digital World." and "Digimon Who Make Cocytus Their Stronghold: GrandDracumon, Gulfmon. Just like the Seven Great Demon Lords, they’ve made Cocytus their base of operations."

Barbamon: "Barbamon exists in the heart of the den of evil known as the Dark Area," (DRB translation) "It resides within the heart of the Dark Area, the den of demons," (my translation)

Gulfmon: "Gulfmon is a Dark Beast Digimon of darkness that emerged from the abyss in the Dark Area." and "This giant maw is said to be connected to the abyss in the Dark Area," (DRB translation) "A Demon Beast Digimon of darkness that emerged from the depths of the Dark Area." and "Not only that, it is said that the Maw's opening is connected to the depths of the Dark Area," (my translation)

GrandDracumon: "It has long maintained its own castle in the Dark Area" (DRB translation) "It has kept a castle in the Dark Area since ancient times," (my translation)

Looking at the specific words used, I feel like Gulfmon and GrandDracumon's profiles are referring to the Dark Area as a whole, and then the Reports provide more specific information about where they're located. Think of it as the profiles saying they live in Europe while the Reports say they have houses in Nice, France.

Barbamon's profile specifically says "悪魔の巣窟であるダークエリアの中心部に存在し". "ダークエリアの中心部に存在し" unambiguously refers to it existing within the central part of the Dark Area, which the Reports tell us is named Cocytus (analogous to Dante's Inferno, where the deepest part is at the center, like an antlion's funnel pit). I translated "悪魔の巣窟である" (which is a den of demons) as referring to "ダークエリアの中心部" (central part of the Dark Area) while DRB translated it as referring just to "ダークエリア" (Dark Area). Basically, the DRB thinks that the entirety of Europe is a den of demons, while I thought it was just Nice, France that could be condemned that way. Connotations of Japanese grammatical parsing are an area where I admit I can struggle, so if a native speaker wants to step in and clarify the intent of that structure, please be my guest.

Bringing in Digimon-external knowledge -- in Dante's Inferno, the 6-9 rings of Hell are within the "City of Dis" which is based on Virgil's description of a city within the Classical underworld. While there's various monsters and damned souls on the outer rings, Dis is where we start hearing about fallen angels, and we see some of them in the 8th and 9th rings. So, it would make sense for the heart of the Dark Area specifically to be described as the den of demons.

(Based on this specifically, Gulfmon's "depths/abyss of Dark Area" (ダークエリアの深淵) could be thought to be pointing at this central, deep core, although it would also be a fair argument that the Dark Area itself could be described as depths or abyss, so it's y'all's prerogative how you want to handle it - in any case, the Report directly states that Gulfmon at least *inhabits* Cocytus.)

In Paradise Lost, the other major source for SGDL/Dark Area inspiriation, there is the Pandaemonium ("all-demon-place" i.e. "den of demons"). It is described as the high Capital of hell, and at one point is located "farr to the inland". It is not explicitly placed in the deepest deaths or exact center, like Dis was, but it can safely be assumed to be as such. At the same time, Pandemonium-inspired attacks like "Pandemonium Lost" channel "all the evil energy of the Dark Area", not just the evil energy of Cocytus. BelialVamdemon also has a Pandemonium attack but it's not described in profile as being connected to the Dark Area. So, it would make sense for the heart of the Dark Area specifically to be described as the den of demons.

Basically, while the DRB translation is not explicitly at odds with the more precise information in the Reports, I feel like the real-world context matches my translation and the Reports indicate that my translation is probably what the profile intended to convey.

Importantly, "den of demons" is presented in Barbamon's profile as a descriptor, not an epithet, so I'd argue it's not proper to write the article as "Cocutys, also known as the 'Den of Demons'", because that's not what Barbamon's profile is doing. Instead, assuming my translation was correct, I'd say something like "Cocytus is a den of demons". Assuming I translated Barbamon's profile correctly and the DRB translation is in minor error, then I think this version of CD's edit is a fair way to phrase the article and be in line with sources.KrytenKoro06 (talk) 10:57, 9 December 2024 (CST)

Also like to mention this image -- while it speaks to ideas about the concept and draws from the same Dante/Milton inspirations, it's from a different author as the purported null canon stories and clearly isn't on the same page with them, given they call it Pandemonium instead of Cocytus. In the same way that different publications have had different ideas about who it is that Demon wants to revive, I think that page should be treated as an interpretation of the "central lore", rather than an exacting definition of it.KrytenKoro06 (talk) 12:29, 9 December 2024 (CST)