Talk:Xiquemon

Can we not use baseless made-up names?
So, okay, this is a new Digimon introduced by some Chinese game or event. I don't really care about that. But the Digimon's name has NOT been revealed, neither in Japanese nor any romanization. So can we not make up random names? The "Japanese name" sections do not even make sense because it's Chinese for god's sake. Honestly I'm not even sure there should be a page for this until we have an actual name to call it, but I don't care about that either way. But 喜鹊兽 is not a proper name, and "Magpiemon" is completely made up, it's not some Piccolomon situation where it was some garbage (but official) translation. It's just a title that is incidentally written in Chinese because it's from a Chinese website. If we decide to keep the page for now while the name is completely unknown, then we should at the very least rename it to "Unnamed magpie digimon" or similar to avoid confusion. No wiki should have a page that just spreads misinformation. If nobody is really against these changes in a few days (or less depending on my patience), then I will make these changes myself. Hopefully there's official names and profilers sooner than that, though. -- Dass077 (talk) 12:33, 17 February 2022 (CST)
 * I agree about not making up names but wikimon already decided that's how to treat Chinese Digimon. It annoys me. They used the name icelordmon then were wrong as it as hexeblaumon. Also saying unnamed makes no sense it has a Chinese name. That's the name id wanna use. But this isn't the only Chinese Digimon on this wiki. They all use this dumb made up name system.Muur (talk) 13:30, 17 February 2022 (CST)
 * I agree as well. There's no logic in using a fanmade name, this wiki should be about proper facts of the franchise, this is not that. It isn't unnamed though, it has an official Chinese name and the article should, in my opinion, use said name until we have a Japanese one. This is like calling Citramon something else chosen by the fandom because there's no Japanese name for it, it's nonsense. The article should be named Xǐquèshòu (or the closest allowed, like Xiqueshou) until we get the Japanese name. -- Blaze Dragon (talk) 13:34, 17 February 2022 (CST)
 * Yeah, I'm fine with calling it "Xiqueshou" for now or something similar honestly, it probably is the best for now. Definitely getting rid of "Magpiemon" though. -- Dass077 (talk) 20:31, 17 February 2022 (CST)
 * you should prob contact the admins about it first. especially when its more than this page involved. and as seen on https://wikimon.net/Talk:Hexeblaumon the logic of Shinji making up names was "Not really a source, just a direct translation following the criteria used in Mansion Giant. This is a Japanese oriented wikia mostly thought for English and other languages speakers, so 'Bingkong Lingzhushou' is far from being something indexable and easily memorable for an English speaker."Muur (talk) 21:24, 17 February 2022 (CST)
 * Muur, I don't know why you edited the page to make it seem like I was replying to you. I was talking to Blaze Dragon. Second, Shinji isn't even an admin? So why should I have to ask him anything or bring him here? Third, how is SEO our problem here? It's a Chinese Digimon AND it's new. It doesn't have any SEO. I'm sorry but I don't understand what your point here is. I'm going ahead and rename the page now. -- Dass077 (talk) 12:03, 18 February 2022 (CST)
 * you gotta do the same with all this guys then https://wikimon.net/Digimon_Legendary_Skies Muur (talk) 13:37, 17 February 2022 (CST)
 * I posted this on the Legendary Skies page, but I'll repost it here since apparently my edits were immediately rejected (though inconsistently?). This -shou nonsense is baffling. I'm very happy we moved away from the goofy fan names, but this is an overcorrection. Obviously Wikimon uses the Japanese names of all Digimon. There are rare cases, however, such as this, where official Japanese names do not exist. Due to the differences in how language works, Chinese Digimon media uses the suffix "-shou" (beast/monster) in place of "-mon" at the end of Digimon names. So, for example, Agumon is referred to as Agushou. It is not an artistic choice, it is a linguistic compromise. The purpose of a wiki is clarity, so it is my belief that henceforth Chinese-origin Digimon should have their names romanized with -mon rather than -shou, because they are inherently interchangeable. This does not change meaning whatsoever, it only enhances clarity. Most people who visit this wiki will not be familiar with the "-shou" problem, and will likely be under the impression that these are some kind of non-Digimon digital creatures. I can't think of a single good argument in favor of keeping the -shou endings. Japanese names will always outrank English and Chinese names, and though we cannot know for sure what the full official Japanese name of each of these Digimon would be, we can know with 100% certainty that they would end in -mon. This change will do well to better integrate Chinese Digimon into the rest of the wiki like they deserve to be. Ideally someday we'll get official Japanese names, but for many, this is unlikely. Thus, we MUST pursue clarity. If you're going to use pinyin suffixes out of slavish obligation, then you better include the pinyin diacritics as well. An arbitrary line is already being drawn by excluding them. That's fine. That's good, actually. But we should draw a better line that creates a better wiki. The name therefore MUST change to Xiquemon. -- Rizeveedramon (talk) 01:22, 29 March 2022 (CDT)
 * Except Wikimon previously used the name icelordmon only to then be wrong when the Encyclopedia revealed the official name as Hexeblaumon. It's nonsense like this that is why I'm in favor of outright removing the Piccolo Protocol as a policy altogether since its overuse/abuse is doing exactly what the wikis were made to combat against: Spread misinformation just as fan sites of old did. Chimera-gui (talk) 01:32, 29 March 2022 (CDT)
 * Seems like you didn't read my post at all. Obviously I'm not advocating for the goofy fan-translated names. I gleefully join you in celebrating their removal. I'm only talking about the -mon suffix. The purpose of a wiki is clarity, and the Piccolo Protocol is extremely important. The badly romanized names in the Digimon Reference Book ARE misinformation. Correcting them is not. What matters is the intention. "Officially produced" does not mean "correct" (Yoxtuyoxtumon, really?). Anyone who has dealt with Japanese media for any short period of time knows this, as romanizations very often fail in conveying the artistic intentions of those who came up with the name or phrase in question. In the same vein, using the -shou suffix is needlessly confusing and spreading the misinformation that -shou has some inherently different meaning than -mon, which is simply untrue. There is simply no benefit at this time to this kind of linguistic slavishness. As I said before, you're already drawing an arbitrary line by excluding the pinyin diacritics. In fact, you're drawing an arbitrary line by romanizing the names AT ALL. There must be an arbitrary line drawn somewhere, because that's how communication across languages works. So if we have to draw a line, shouldn't we draw it where it is most useful to the people using this wiki? If you have any arguments in favor of giving preference to the -shou suffix, then I would certainly be interested in hearing them. But right now it seems unproductive, no? We know with (and I stress this) 100% certainty (a rare thing) that if these Digimon were to have Japanese names, they would end with -mon. It's a small leap for substantial improvement of wiki usability. No information is being lost. No information is even being changed. Only clarity is improved. Frankly, this doesn't actually matter for this particular Digimon (Xiquemon), because it's almost certain to get a Japanese name in due time. This matters much more for the Legendary Skies Digimon, who are likely to never get such treatment. -- Rizeveedramon (talk) 01:49, 29 March 2022 (CDT)
 * we should not be making names up. The official Japanese name of the blue guy isn't bingkonglizhumon it's hexeblaumon. We have had trouble when people have ran around using the names wikimon made up unaware they are non canon. Switching shou to mon still does this. Accuracy is more important than being scared of Chinese.Muur (talk) 02:13, 29 March 2022 (CDT)
 * I agree, accuracy is very important, which is why it perplexes me that you prefer the less accurate choice. You are leading people to believe that there is a special difference between -shou and -mon, which is a lie. The format of Digimon names is universal. Again, you've already drawn an arbitrary line by excluding the pinyin diacritics. You can't accuse me of being "scared of Chinese" (really?) when you are also removing important information to the Chinese language. No one seems to want to address this point. I am arguing for the more honest and accurate version of the story here. No transliteration is without compromise, but the compromise we choose must be the most useful. Your line is no more arbitrary than mine, it is simply less useful. This is why the aforementioned Piccolo Protocol exists, to prevent this bizarre slavishness to lines that aren't nearly as clear as you think they are. From a linguistics perspective, this is all rather silly. This problem is going to keep popping up as long as there are those who insist on making something less accurate supposedly in the name of preserving accuracy. What matters is INTENT of the creatives involved, not some weird made up standard of objectivity that is equally subjective but with less utility. The name of this Digimon IS Xiquemon, by all reasonable standards, until we get a real Japanese name. Japanese fans have no problem dealing with this issue. I really don't understand why english-speaking ones do. You'd be surprised how hilarious they find descriptions of conversations like this (I'm glad they do, because it's merely tiresome to me). But anyway, like I said, if you don't want to go with the more accurate option, then you should maintain the pinyin diacritics. To remove them would be an affront to everything you've argued for. In fact, romanizing names at all is a loss of "accuracy" that I'm not sure how you can justify if you believe you aren't already compromising. -- Rizeveedramon (talk) 02:32, 29 March 2022 (CDT)
 * The badly romanized names in the Digimon Reference Book ARE misinformation. Correcting them is not. Yeah no, not how that works like at all. What is "correct" in your opinion means fuck all since you are not, and I emphasize this, NOT the creator of the series. To quote Kryten: "Our job to honestly and comprehensively record the official material, not to try to impose our own preferred structure on it". This is why the aforementioned Piccolo Protocol frankly should not have allowed to exist at all because it is dishonest to claim that we know how to translate Bandai's IP better when we've already gotten the intent of the creatives involved wrong before (Huckmon and Jesmon) and thus we cannot assume their intent, period. And to claim that romanizing names at all is a loss of accuracy when it is Bandai themselves doing the romanization is, at best, lunacy.  The name of this Digimon is not Xiquemon in Chinese, it is Xiqueshou, that's the whole point: You are assuming, operative word here, that it is Xiquemon without any actual authority when Muur already cited Hexeblaumon for why we should not do this because there is not such thing as a more accurate option. Chimera-gui (talk) 03:46, 29 March 2022 (CDT)
 * Okay then, personally I can't comprehend caring more about blind adherence to promotional materials written by interns than the actual intent of the artists who create the thing you're investing time into (which is not nearly as difficult as you imply, and mistakes are easy to correct as more information becomes available). You do you, though. I doubt I can reason with you on that front. We all have different ways on engaging with the material. I must ask though, are you going to commit to your assertions and restore the pinyin diacritics to the names then? If not, can you give a justification that isn't identical to my own position? -- Rizeveedramon (talk) 04:17, 29 March 2022 (CDT)
 * I can't comprehend caring more about blind adherence to promotional materials written by interns than the actual intent of the artists who create the thing you're investing time into Again with the assumptions because you have not been doing this for almost a decade at this point. And I have no control over whether or not diacritics, I haven't even been able to fix all the pages you've moved because of the site won't allow it. Chimera-gui (talk) 04:41, 29 March 2022 (CDT)