Talk:SoC

Digimon Used
Moving the discussion here. I see the "Digimon Used" category as necessary for several reasons. The issue that Muur seems to have is that they believe that "Digimon Used" is exclusively for the third reason, which contradicts its usage under the Digipolice. It also wouldn't make sense if it was an organization that didn't have unnamed members in the first place (although that's not the case here).
 * 1) Humans in Seekers are not limited to partner Digimon. It is a Cyber Sleuth situation where people collect, trade, and use Digimon as expendable hacking tools. In the first chapter, Eiji himself mentioned that he bought his Tyranomon with money, and he simply replaces the Tyranomon that got killed with another one he had in his inventory.
 * 2) We have clearly-designated partner Digimon (i.e. Loogamon and Dorumon) who are intelligent and plot-relevant characters, distinct from the expendable and generic Digimon. They are unique individuals and it makes sense for them to be listed under "Members" alongside their human partners, rather than being treated as common non-unique Digimon that are simply owned and used.
 * 3) There are other unnamed members of the SoC who presumably have their own Digimon. They also participated in the Mugendramon operation, albeit their Digimon were not specified.

I don't see why it makes sense for the Digipolice to have this section but not the SoC. As stated on the official Seekers page on the Digimon site, the Digipolice's Digimon unit were personally captured by Yulin, so they are essentially Yulin's 'Tyranomons'. Rather, they're even closer to Yulin than 'Tyranomons', as she didn't just buy them. It's just that she's using them as soldiers, rather than a partner like Ryudamon. Eiji is also using his Tyranomons as 'soldiers' (granted, he's been more caring to them since meeting Loogamon), so I don't see why they should be treated differently.

If you really want to specify that they're Eiji's, you could sub-divide the "Digimon Used" category into the specific members, but I don't see that as unnecessary, as the Tyranomons are apparently available for sale at such an affordable price that a small-time freelancer like Eiji could buy them in bulk. They're not unique to Eiji, and Eiji is also a member of the SoC (being a spy doesn't change that, since he was still recruited under official SoC procedures). A generic Digimon available in bulk used by a member of the group should qualify under "Digimon Used", regardless of the specific member. --YongYoKyo (talk) 13:38, 1 September 2023 (CDT)
 * but do those nameless guys use tyrannomons? we dont know. if they ever mention what digimon the nameless soc hacker use, we can then list them. the red lizard boiis belong to eiji, so are with him.Muur (talk) 21:32, 1 September 2023 (CDT)
 * By that logic, Yulin is a nameless Digipolice member. Again, "Digimon Used" is not exclusive to nameless 'randoms'. Rather, the rest of the wiki pretty much use the "Digimon Used" category primarily for named characters to distinguish between their partner Digimon and their non-partner-but-still-owned Digimon, so I don't know where you got the idea from in the first place. The page is not named 'nameless SoC members' or 'SoC except Eiji'. The "Digimon Used" is for the 'SoC' itself, and Eiji is an SoC member, so why is he excluded?
 * The fact of the matter is that the Tyranomons are expendable troops owned by a member of the SoC, acting under the name of the SoC. Eiji literally admits that he's representing the SoC in the most recent chapter. From Leon's perspective, the Tyranomons are troops belonging to SoC, and that's not wrong, as—again—Eiji is an SoC member. If Eiji is acting in the name of the SoC, his Digimon troops are the SoC's Digimon troops. Being listed under "Digimon Used" is to distinguish them as non-partner Digimon, not to distinguish exact ownership of who used which non-partner Digimon. They're all non-partner Digimon under the SoC regardless, Eiji's or otherwise. The page is named 'SoC'. --YongYoKyo (talk) 22:53, 1 September 2023 (CDT)
 * The issue is that unlike the Digimon captured/modified by Yulin, who are explicitly shown being used by Satsuki and are implied/possibly stated to be used by all officers, Eiji is currently the only known character to explicitly use Tyrannomon so it's disingenuous to claim that every Sons of Chaos member uses Tyrannomon without actual evidence to support this claim when the Sons of Chaos are likely more of a loose collection of hackers working together than a proper organization like the Digipolice to begin with thus any Digimon individual members use are likely going to be unique to the individual members. Basically how the Digipolice use Digimon and how Sons of Chaos use them is going to be apples and oranges so we should avoid claiming that the usage of any Digimon species is universally shared among the Sons of Chaos the way it is for the Digipolice. Chimera-gui (talk) 23:12, 1 September 2023 (CDT)
 * It's not claiming that every member uses it. Just because the deputy leader (Satsuki) uses it doesn't necessarily mean the rank-and-file members have the same authority. I highly doubt that every single Digipolice member has the authorization to command something like Brigadramon. The only thing it's claiming is that they're used under the name of the organization, which is exactly what Eiji is doing. If he's recognized as a part of the SoC and is given the authority to represent the SoC, I don't see why he can't have the recognition of representing the SoC if he has both recognition and representation separately. Moreover, it was never implied that Tyranomon is exclusive to Eiji. From the beginning, Tyranomon was described to not only have financial value (meaning it is a property that can be bought and sold) but also is something that a freelance cracker like Eiji can afford multiple copies of (although still expensive enough that he couldn't bear the financial loss of having one die). Something of quantity and affordability is arguably the opposite of being exclusive. It's exactly because the SoC is a collection of crackers that Tyranomon—something available in quantity to even a poor freelance cracker—is implicitly also at the disposal of high-end crackers like the SoC who presumably have greater financial power than Eiji who's living paycheck-to-paycheck. The GriMM market itself is essentially the SoC's 'arsenal' (and it's been confirmed that they use it to procure Digimon like black Agumon). In which case, the usage of Tyranomon is indeed universally shared among the SoC; they're just choosing not to use Tyranomon (and that's assuming they don't). If a Digimon used by a representative of the SoC is also available in quantity on the GriMM market and is affordable by even the poorest member (who is incidentally said representative), I'd say that's as close to standardized equipment as possible for the SoC. --YongYoKyo (talk) 01:15, 2 September 2023 (CDT)
 * we have no proof any other members have tyrannomon and unless they borrow eijis...Muur (talk) 04:13, 2 September 2023 (CDT)
 * We do have proof that other members have access to Tyranomon if they so desire, by the sheer fact that Eiji was originally a common cracker just doing side-jobs on GriMM. Does it make sense for an average standard to be unachievable by the top performers? Tyranomon is of financial value with multiple supply, and is available to even freelance crackers with little money or connections. Eiji was a poor freelancer living paycheck-to-paycheck but could still afford at least 4 Tyranomons. The SoC is a financial powerhouse that can offer more than a hundred million yen for a black Agumon, an amount of money that Eiji says could allow him to live for ten years without working. Altogether, it is far more likely for a regular SoC member to use a Tyranomon (something that even the standard can afford), than it is for a regular Digipolice officer to have the authorization to use something like Brigadramon (which likely requires an above-standard of rank or authority). If Tyranomon is on the GriMM market available to the average cracker, affordable to even poor crackers, and has been confirmed to be used by at least one member, why can't it be representative of the organization? Otherwise, you would need to claim that either Eiji has a monopoly on the Tyranomon market, or that other members of the SoC (i.e. the most powerful team of crackers) have less money and connections than Eiji do. Both of these claims are highly unlikely. --YongYoKyo (talk) 10:55, 2 September 2023 (CDT)
 * wikis dont run on assumptions. we cant just assume some other members have tyrannomons. in fact, operation infinity specifically stated everyone except marvin were using rookie digimonMuur (talk) 13:25, 2 September 2023 (CDT)
 * They're not assumptions. It's a fact that a member does use Tyranomon, even if that member is Eiji. It's a fact that Tyranomon has financial value and can be obtained in multiple quantity by a poor 'average joe', as proven by Eiji. It's a fact that GriMM is used as a market for trading Digimon. It's a fact that the SoC uses GriMM to procure Digimon, as proven by the black Agumon bounty. It's a fact that the SoC has more financial power than a poor freelancer (again, the bounty). This all boils down to the fact that the SoC has the access (i.e. GriMM market) and the capability (i.e. money) to acquire their own Tyranomon if they so desire, and there is indeed a member under them who has used Tyranomon in the name of the organization. Tell me where the assumption is? If Tyranomon is easily available to an average member, and a member has indeed been confirmed with one, where is the assumption? It's not like every single police officer uses every single Digimon within the Digipolice's arsenal, so why the double standards? It's a bigger assumption to claim that Eiji has a monopoly on Tyranomons when the context implies the opposite, that Eiji is just a regular consumer who can barely afford the Tyranomons that he does happen to own. --YongYoKyo (talk) 14:33, 2 September 2023 (CDT)
 * Seeing as the argument has digressed to falling back onto the moral high-ground of 'the wiki isn't supposed to do this', I'm centering the discussion back onto the actual subject of the matter. Listing Tyranomon under "Digimon Used" would not be false. There are no technical falsities or assumptions being made, other than the assumption that "Digimon Used" excludes the Digimon (non-partner or otherwise) of named characters (which contradicts the presence of the "Digimon Used" category on the pages of several named characters). Tyranomon is a generic non-partner Digimon, not to mention one with multiple non-distinct individuals, used under the name of the SoC. Eiji is a member of the SoC, is acting under the SoC, and is given authority by the SoC's leaders to represent the SoC in his meeting with Leon (where he also uses the aforementioned Tyranomon). By all technicalities, it would not be false for Tyranomon to be included among the non-partner troops of the SoC. No 'wiki rules' would be violated. The issue that you're arguing against isn't that it's false or assuming too much. The issue that you're arguing against is whether you recognize Eiji to be representative of the SoC, whether it's because you don't acknowledge that an individual can represent a group, or because being a named character inherently disqualifies him from representing the group. Obviously, I recognize Eiji's representation of the group. I'll sum up my reasoning into two main points:


 * 1) He is literally given authority by the SoC's leaders to represent the SoC in the negotiation with Leon. If you're given authority to take charge of a negotiation with an outside party, your individual actions represent your group. There are no two ways about it. Using a troop of non-partner Digimon—regardless that they're your personal troops—means that those Digimon are representing your group, not you alone. For example, Digimon are not excluded from representing the Bagra Army just because they only serve a specific Death General. The General has the authority to represent the Bagra Army.
 * 2) Eiji himself comes from the most average of cracker backgrounds. He is the gold standard of an average cracker (or even below average, as he barely earns enough to feed himself). Even without the authority from the leaders, he is inherently a prime example of the minimum standard of the crackers that make up the SoC (of course, excluding what he received from Abadin Electronics, which doesn't include Tyranomon). Eiji is arguably more representative of an average member of the SoC than the high-ranking leaders, who are clearly far from average crackers.
 * As the idea of shared accountability is evidently controversial, I'll concede back onto my suggestion of sub-dividing the "Digimon Used" category into the specific members, maybe something like how the Bagra Army page use tabs to sub-divide Digimon by Zones. Kinda redundant with only one known tab, but I disagree with listing non-partner Digimon of little relevance among "Members", as it implies that Tyranomon is on the same level of Loogamon, not just as an 'owned' Digimon, but as a major character, which seems disingenuous. It's like classifying a bit part like 'Villager A' (or rather, 'Tyranomon #1') as a leading or supporting role. --YongYoKyo (talk) 18:37, 2 September 2023 (CDT)
 * They're not assumptions. You are as a matter of fact making assumptions because I'm gonna let you in on a little secret: Having the resources to acquire their own Tyranomon does not mean that Sons of Chaos have actually done so, especially if Marvin is explicitly stated to be the only member besides Eiji to have any Digimon above Level III implying the exact opposite of your claim. That you've stated facts that are correct does not mean that the conclusion you've come to is itself correct because...


 * Using a troop of non-partner Digimon—regardless that they're your personal troops—means that those Digimon are representing your group, not you alone. For example, Digimon are not excluded from representing the Bagra Army just because they only serve a specific Death General. The General has the authority to represent the Bagra Army. This is patently false, your claim would be like if we counted a group of mercenary Digimon whom DarkKnightmon hired as being part of the Bagra Empire itself when the Empire has in-house armies. And yes Eiji is, for all intents and purposes, a mercenary under contract not an actual member of the group. That he was granted authority to represent the SoC in the negotiation does not change the fact that he has reason to be loyal to the SoC. If and when Eiji turns on the SoC, his Tyrannomon would not be usable by the SoC anymore now would they? This is the problem Muur and I have with counting Eiji's Tyrannomon as being used by the SoC itself, they simply are not and unless the SoC are confirmed to have their own Tyrannomon unrelated to Eiji's, it's disingenuous to claim that Tyrannomon are being used by them purely on the grounds that Eiji has Tyrannomon and is currently a "member".


 * Just because the deputy leader (Satsuki) uses it doesn't necessarily mean the rank-and-file members have the same authority. I highly doubt that every single Digipolice member has the authorization to command something like Brigadramon. But anyone of sufficient rank presumably would though and that is the important thing here. Requiring a set condition to be fulfilled to be granted access to certain equipment is the standard for martial organizations but that does not change the fact that these Digimon are explicitly available to any and all officers of sufficient rank. Chimera-gui (talk) 23:24, 2 September 2023 (CDT)
 * Having the resources to acquire their own Tyranomon does not mean that Sons of Chaos have actually done so, especially if Marvin is explicitly stated to be the only member besides Eiji to have any Digimon above Level III implying the exact opposite of your claim. That you've stated facts that are correct does not mean that the conclusion you've come to is itself correct because... Except Eiji, by his existence as a member of the SoC, still confirms at least one case where the SoC has acquired their own Tyranomon. I'm not taking into account only the availability of a Digimon, but their usage by the SoC as well (which Eiji represents). There were those Espimons that were evidently commonly-used Digimon in the cracker community, but since they weren't confirmed to be used by an SoC member like Tyranomon was, I didn't consider them as Digimon used by the SoC despite their apparent availability. As for the level of the other members' Digimon, you're blatantly ignoring the fact that they specified that they remained at that level because they wanted to extend their time (as the duration of Mind Linking shortens at higher levels, and they only wanted to stall for as much time as possible), not because they're incapable of evolving to a higher level.


 * And yes Eiji is, for all intents and purposes, a mercenary under contract not an actual member of the group. That he was granted authority to represent the SoC in the negotiation does not change the fact that he has reason to be loyal to the SoC. If and when Eiji turns on the SoC, his Tyrannomon would not be usable by the SoC anymore now would they? That is incorrect. Eiji went through the proper recruitment process. He was interviewed and given an entrance exam by the interviewer (who turned out to be the leader Tartarus himself), and he passed with flying colors. He is an official member of the group, regardless of his intent in joining. Whether he turns on them is not only an assumption of a greater scale, but is also irrelevant and doesn't change anything. I see now that you're discriminating against Eiji's status as an SoC member because he's a spy. While that can be grounds for one's removal from an organization, loyalty itself is irrelevant to whether one is a member of an organization or not. If he was recruited through the official process, then his status as a member is as valid as everyone else. His actions under the name of the SoC (including using certain Digimon on official business) are not invalidated if he later betrays them and leaves the group, because those actions were done while he was still a member under the name of the SoC; they weren't done after he left (Assuming he leaves in the first place. For all we know, Eiji could usurp Tartarus as the SoC's leader and lead them in turning over a new leaf). Whether he continues to use Tyranomon after he leaves doesn't invalidate the time they were used in the SoC. It would still be on their 'resume', so to speak. At most, they would be noted as former members (again, assuming they leave in the first place).


 * This is the problem Muur and I have with counting Eiji's Tyrannomon as being used by the SoC itself, they simply are not and unless the SoC are confirmed to have their own Tyrannomon unrelated to Eiji's, it's disingenuous to claim that Tyrannomon are being used by them purely on the grounds that Eiji has Tyrannomon and is currently a "member". Again, you're discriminating against Eiji for something irrelevant to his membership status. Eiji is a proper member of the SoC, recruited through the official process under the scrutiny of the group's very own leader. He is recognized as a member by both the group's own leaders and by outsiders such as Leon. His intent is irrelevant, as you don't have to be loyal to be a part of an organization. Loyalty is just an expectation. While no one expects betrayal, no one also expects a newly-enlisted rookie to give their life for the group. It's not disingenuous to claim Tyranomon is used by the SoC, because Eiji is a part of the SoC. If an average no-name member who went through the same recruitment process as Eiji used their own Tyranomon, you wouldn't bat an eye if that person's Tyranomon was classified under the SoC. Eiji is no different just because he's a spy.


 * But anyone of sufficient rank presumably would though and that is the important thing here. Requiring a set condition to be fulfilled to be granted access to certain equipment is the standard for martial organizations but that does not change the fact that these Digimon are explicitly available to any and all officers of sufficient rank. 'Presumably' means that what you're saying is ultimately an assumption. Eiji's own case explicitly implies that any cracker can acquire Tyranomon with sufficient wealth (Eiji has compared its monetary value to be comparable to a part-time job's pay), and the SoC are definitely not lacking in wealth. If trade channels are the issue, anyone of sufficient rank in the SoC would 'presumably' have access to the SoC's trade channels that would allow them to acquire most—if not any—Digimon that has a monetary value, like Tyranomon. In which case, how is it different from the Digipolice? The fact that they bought it with their own money? In cases where it is applicable under US law, employers can require employees to pay for tools and equipment, whether through payroll deductions or otherwise. This also applies to the police. Depending on the agency, some equipment are issued to officers for free, while other equipment may have to be purchased with the officer's own money, whether through the agency's own channels or the officer's personal channels (granted, in cases where firearms aren't issued, their choice of firearm usually would still need to be approved). Are police equipment no longer police equipment because the officer paid for it? Is a gun held by a police officer no longer police equipment because it's not standard issued, or because they're the only officer within their agency that uses that specific gun model? Eiji's case is similar. He's an 'officer' using non-issued equipment on duty. You're basically making up your own rules based on your ideals of a 'proper' organization (i.e. loyalty, only using standard issued equipment, etc.) and are discriminating against those (e.g. the SoC as an organization, Eiji as a member) who do not fit those ideals. --YongYoKyo (talk) 05:16, 3 September 2023 (CDT)